Hello everyone I'm the new owner of Countdown (sail no 321) Today I had to make use of our local Life boat and Coast guard after running aground. My problem was I was unable to tack through the wind coming up to a lee shore. 3 seperate attempts all waiting for the jib to back before trying to sheet in. Wind was a good Force 4 - 5 gusty. The main was double reefed and the Genoa was partly reefed ( no more than a third) I had been sailing down the River Torridge for an hour without the Genoa being furled. ( Tacking several times) once in more open waters I experienced considerable weatherhelm so eased off on the mainsheet and eventually partly furled the genoa. The Rudder was fully down as was the centreplate. I had difficulty rounding the Inner Pulley buoy but made it on the second attempt. Then try to beat back up the river proved the problem. Yes an early gybe would have been wisest with hindsight I suppose, but one should be able to tack through gust winds surely.
Any suggestions would be welcome
OBVIOUSLY I WILL BE KEEPING WELL CLEAR OF ANY LEE SHORES TILL THIS PROBLEM IS OVERCOME>
Hugh
Tacking through the wind
Tacking through the wind
I am interested in information about Swift 18
Tacking through the wind
Oh Dear Hugh!There is a tendency to fail to tack...I am sure the more experienced Swift owners will soon respond and give great advice. Look in the archive for more about weather helm.
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CHERRY PIE
- Cruising
- Posts: 143
- Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:04 pm
Problems tacking
We have experienced this problem on occasion and I put it down to insufficient speed when turning......mmm how to explain my point? when speeding along just before tacking one has a tendency to get that little extra distance when passing the bow thru the eye of the wind and this tends to slow the boat down and the wind pushes you back again, I remember getting a little brassed off with this once and tried very fast tacking which almost buried the stern quarter under the water so I learned that some where in between is about right not to quick and definately not to slow......sufficient speed with a reasonably speedy tack is my advice. All boats take a bit of getting used to we have owned Cherry Pie for about 15 years now and still get it wrong from time to time. Happy Xmas to all, to cold for us fair weather sailors Brrr. Gary & Ruth
Gary/Ruth & Skipper who used to sail a Swift 18
Tacking through the wind
In any other boat I would have been certain that I had sufficient way on to enable me to easily tack ie 2-3 knots Tried sailing today again in 4-5 conditions with a working jib. Outboard just ticking over t in case of problems. Several times I experienced the refusal to tack through. I have been slow in putting the helm over and have tended to bear away to increase speed before putting the helm steadily over.. I am of the opinion that in these strengths of wind I will need more speed to overcome the effect of windage on the hull. It is a long time since I have sailed such a light craft and am beginning to think that wind on the hull is seriously affecting the ability to tack. Ie I need more forward momentum to overcome the lateral wind pressure on the bows. My next trial will be with a full Genoa and mainsail and ensure I have considerable way on before putting the helm over. I have noted any quick movement of the helm is fruitless the blade just acts as a brake.
I own and single handedly sail a Macwester Atlanta 28 as well as a 13 foot homebuilt dinghy. Neither has ever given me the handling problems I am experiencing with the Swift.
Any further advice will be greatly welcomed.
Oh yes one other thing has anyone altered the position of the Main sheets ? Near strangulation or castration seem to be almost inevitable if reaching for the jib sheets.
From: Terry [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 20 December 2007 16:09
To: forum-general@swift18.org
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: Tacking through the wind
I was coming round to the idea of speed being an issue. Double reefed…force 4…possibly slamming a bit? How fast do you think you might have been going?
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I own and single handedly sail a Macwester Atlanta 28 as well as a 13 foot homebuilt dinghy. Neither has ever given me the handling problems I am experiencing with the Swift.
Any further advice will be greatly welcomed.
Oh yes one other thing has anyone altered the position of the Main sheets ? Near strangulation or castration seem to be almost inevitable if reaching for the jib sheets.
From: Terry [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 20 December 2007 16:09
To: forum-general@swift18.org
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: Tacking through the wind
I was coming round to the idea of speed being an issue. Double reefed…force 4…possibly slamming a bit? How fast do you think you might have been going?
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I am interested in information about Swift 18
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robvega
- Cruising
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:37 pm
- Location: Cleckheaton, West Yorks
- Boat Name: Vega
- Sail Number: 191
Tacking through the wind
Hi Hugh
To add my twopennyworth, it sounds like something is amiss somewhere, you shouldn't have that much trouble tacking with 2-3 knots headway. Swifts should only have weather helm when well heeled when she'll gripe up into the wind, and in flat calm conditions there could be massive lee helm. Other than those two extremes she should respond to the rudder easily, like a dinghy.
Are you sure the keel was fully down, 48 turns. Have you read Pauline's (Rondonay) saga 'The keel has come to grief' in the keel/tiller section.
Hang on, its not the tide is it?
Rob
To add my twopennyworth, it sounds like something is amiss somewhere, you shouldn't have that much trouble tacking with 2-3 knots headway. Swifts should only have weather helm when well heeled when she'll gripe up into the wind, and in flat calm conditions there could be massive lee helm. Other than those two extremes she should respond to the rudder easily, like a dinghy.
Are you sure the keel was fully down, 48 turns. Have you read Pauline's (Rondonay) saga 'The keel has come to grief' in the keel/tiller section.
Hang on, its not the tide is it?
Rob
Tacking through the wind
Rob
I have encountered the weather helm in gusts and can accept it. Yes the keel was fully down till I ran aground. Yes I have checked the keel both before the incident and today. 40 odd turns up and down. It was slack water ( half hour before HW). See my comments today I experienced similar problems with working jib and again near HW. Yes I thought she’d be like a fast dinghy but she’s nothing like as responsive to the helm. Even my old tub (a converted rowing boat) tacks far better.
Hugh
From: robvega [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 20 December 2007 20:59
To: forum-general@swift18.org
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: Tacking through the wind
Hi Hugh
To add my twopennyworth, it sounds like something is amiss somewhere, you shouldn't have that much trouble tacking with 2-3 knots headway. Swifts should only have weather helm when well heeled when she'll gripe up into the wind, and in flat calm conditions there could be massive lee helm. Other than those two extremes she should respond to the rudder easily, like a dinghy.
Are you sure the keel was fully down, 48 turns. Have you read Pauline's (Rondonay) saga 'The keel has come to grief' in the keel/tiller section.
Hang on, its not the tide is it?
Rob
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I have encountered the weather helm in gusts and can accept it. Yes the keel was fully down till I ran aground. Yes I have checked the keel both before the incident and today. 40 odd turns up and down. It was slack water ( half hour before HW). See my comments today I experienced similar problems with working jib and again near HW. Yes I thought she’d be like a fast dinghy but she’s nothing like as responsive to the helm. Even my old tub (a converted rowing boat) tacks far better.
Hugh
From: robvega [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 20 December 2007 20:59
To: forum-general@swift18.org
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: Tacking through the wind
Hi Hugh
To add my twopennyworth, it sounds like something is amiss somewhere, you shouldn't have that much trouble tacking with 2-3 knots headway. Swifts should only have weather helm when well heeled when she'll gripe up into the wind, and in flat calm conditions there could be massive lee helm. Other than those two extremes she should respond to the rudder easily, like a dinghy.
Are you sure the keel was fully down, 48 turns. Have you read Pauline's (Rondonay) saga 'The keel has come to grief' in the keel/tiller section.
Hang on, its not the tide is it?
Rob
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I am interested in information about Swift 18
Tacking through the wind
Just a thought......unless you have the rudder lines tied down, it lifts, and feels really woolly
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Tacking through the wind
There's a critical angle for the keel isn't there? 15degrees back from the vertical? It's in the archive somewhere.Yes we had all kinds of trouble tacking, changed to a jib, checked the rake, renewed the rudder control lines, but it was when we got the keel sorted that the real improvement came.
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joe_swift18
- Under way
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:07 pm
Problems tacking
Happy new year folks and fair sailing in 2008!
Just a few points:
Looking at my keel and manufacturer's drawings of the boat the rake back of a fully-down keel looks a lot more than just 15 degrees.
Swift 18's have an awful lot of windage for their weight. Last summer, I was going into Carlingford Lough at night with about a F6 headwind under motor. When she would go slightly to one side or the other of the wind she really wanted to screw around to the side completely. Keeping her on course required a lot of concentration and rudder work. In retrospect, a fully sheeted-in reefed main may well have helped. In any event, it certainly showed me how much windage these boats have.
I find it difficult to figure out what your problem was without being able to see it in action. One thing I found in Lasers, and also to some extent in the Swift 18, is that the above a certain threshold the harder the wind blows the harder it becomes to tack the boat unless you change how you do it. In the laser, when it was a good F5+, I found I had to sheet out quickly after going through the wind otherwise the boat would heel and get stuck in irons. In strong winds (F5ish as well I suppose) in the swift I'm fairly sure I have done the same when I have found that due to excessive heel after going through the wind the boat goes into the weather vane mode!
Also make sure the rudder is down fully and as per specs. The boat is very sensitive to small changes in the rudder. I have temporarily repaired mine, after it broke last summer, by bolting it to the stock. It is now about 3-4" shorter and doesn't go down quite as vertically. The rudder no longer controls the boat when going astern! This makes it awkward going out of the marina. It is also less sensitive when under sail.
Also, if you reefed in the main proportionately more than the genoa you will lose pointing ability and hence tacks become more difficult.
Wrt to castration(!) and the main sheet 2 points:
You can reattach the main block to a strop fixed to the 2 U bolts on the transom used for the back stay. I haven't done this yet but many people have as it makes more room in the cockpit.
Secondly, it is easier and you have more control over the genoa (particularly in very gusty conditions where you could broach) to cleat the genoa sheet to the cleat on the weather side. This means you go around the winch as normal and rather than cleating to cleat beside the winch bring the sheet across the companionway and onto the cleat beside you on the weather side. That way it's beside you and more importantly when a large gust blows and flattens the boat you're not making it worse by bring your weight over to that side of the boat to uncleat it. I'm not sure what mods people have done to their boats but I think this will work for most.
Joe
Just a few points:
Looking at my keel and manufacturer's drawings of the boat the rake back of a fully-down keel looks a lot more than just 15 degrees.
Swift 18's have an awful lot of windage for their weight. Last summer, I was going into Carlingford Lough at night with about a F6 headwind under motor. When she would go slightly to one side or the other of the wind she really wanted to screw around to the side completely. Keeping her on course required a lot of concentration and rudder work. In retrospect, a fully sheeted-in reefed main may well have helped. In any event, it certainly showed me how much windage these boats have.
I find it difficult to figure out what your problem was without being able to see it in action. One thing I found in Lasers, and also to some extent in the Swift 18, is that the above a certain threshold the harder the wind blows the harder it becomes to tack the boat unless you change how you do it. In the laser, when it was a good F5+, I found I had to sheet out quickly after going through the wind otherwise the boat would heel and get stuck in irons. In strong winds (F5ish as well I suppose) in the swift I'm fairly sure I have done the same when I have found that due to excessive heel after going through the wind the boat goes into the weather vane mode!
Also make sure the rudder is down fully and as per specs. The boat is very sensitive to small changes in the rudder. I have temporarily repaired mine, after it broke last summer, by bolting it to the stock. It is now about 3-4" shorter and doesn't go down quite as vertically. The rudder no longer controls the boat when going astern! This makes it awkward going out of the marina. It is also less sensitive when under sail.
Also, if you reefed in the main proportionately more than the genoa you will lose pointing ability and hence tacks become more difficult.
Wrt to castration(!) and the main sheet 2 points:
You can reattach the main block to a strop fixed to the 2 U bolts on the transom used for the back stay. I haven't done this yet but many people have as it makes more room in the cockpit.
Secondly, it is easier and you have more control over the genoa (particularly in very gusty conditions where you could broach) to cleat the genoa sheet to the cleat on the weather side. This means you go around the winch as normal and rather than cleating to cleat beside the winch bring the sheet across the companionway and onto the cleat beside you on the weather side. That way it's beside you and more importantly when a large gust blows and flattens the boat you're not making it worse by bring your weight over to that side of the boat to uncleat it. I'm not sure what mods people have done to their boats but I think this will work for most.
Joe
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joe_swift18
- Under way
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:07 pm
Genoa vs Main
Dave,
Theory is that with no main and jib/genoa only you lose a lot of pointing ability. It makes sense when you think about the location of the various forces (aero & hydro) and how the resultant impacts on performance.
Certainly, on Evergreen under Genoa only I can make virtually no progress windward. I can just about stop it gradually working its way downwind. I've tried many times as I'm often too lazy to bother hoisting the main. However, I concede that on my boat the sails are shot and windward performance is pretty lousy and I don't have great pointing ability under full rig.
It's strange that yours points better under gen only. Could it be a poor main, very large rake or something else?
Another complicating factor to bear in mind which can confuse things is that as you lose speed the wind comes aftwards which allows you to point that little bit higher. But, like-for-like, higher speed and slightly lower pointing to the TRUE wind is faster than slower speed with slightly better pointing to the TRUE wind. Hope that makes sense! Possibly this is a factor in the perceived improvement under gen only.
I agree with you entirely that gens with more than about a third of it furled are absolutely lousy sails for upwind work. Certainly, it is the case for the older baggier ones like mine.
One of my many plans for Evergreen is a working jib for upwind work (and also a 15sqft storm jib). The tack will be located just aft of the anchor locker. The bow sprit, I think, is too far forward and would give poor sail balance and a virtually non-existent slot.
Joe
Theory is that with no main and jib/genoa only you lose a lot of pointing ability. It makes sense when you think about the location of the various forces (aero & hydro) and how the resultant impacts on performance.
Certainly, on Evergreen under Genoa only I can make virtually no progress windward. I can just about stop it gradually working its way downwind. I've tried many times as I'm often too lazy to bother hoisting the main. However, I concede that on my boat the sails are shot and windward performance is pretty lousy and I don't have great pointing ability under full rig.
It's strange that yours points better under gen only. Could it be a poor main, very large rake or something else?
Another complicating factor to bear in mind which can confuse things is that as you lose speed the wind comes aftwards which allows you to point that little bit higher. But, like-for-like, higher speed and slightly lower pointing to the TRUE wind is faster than slower speed with slightly better pointing to the TRUE wind. Hope that makes sense! Possibly this is a factor in the perceived improvement under gen only.
I agree with you entirely that gens with more than about a third of it furled are absolutely lousy sails for upwind work. Certainly, it is the case for the older baggier ones like mine.
One of my many plans for Evergreen is a working jib for upwind work (and also a 15sqft storm jib). The tack will be located just aft of the anchor locker. The bow sprit, I think, is too far forward and would give poor sail balance and a virtually non-existent slot.
Joe
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Phil De Troy
- Making way
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:00 pm
- Location: Seneffe (Belgium)
- Contact:
Tacking through the wind
Genoas are adding surface in the middle of the boat, so the use of genoa and deeply reefed mainsail won't help a lot. A genoa is usualy made of light cloth, they are not holding a flat shape in high winds, they induce heel, and weather helm.
Bad shape of the genoa and jibs may also be due to bad control of the forestay, due to insufficient tension on the upper shrouds.
Badly controlled mainsails are also a souce of problems.
As the wind goes higher, the sail shape must be flatter.
This is obtained by higher tension on the foot for the lower part. And with mast bent at mid heigth. A common fault is to give too much tension on the lower shrouds, that prevents mast bent and increases heel and weather helm, even with tension on the backstay.
Trick to trim the mast properly...
Hoist the mainsail in light wind.
Release tension on the lower shrouds
Give high tension to the backstay to have the mast ben by 1.5 times the fore-and-aft section
Check if the mainsail can be set completely flat (or no more than 5% curvature).
In this configuration, adjust tension of the upper shrouds to "well-tensioned" and give just less tension on the lower shrouds.
So when you release the backstay tension, some mast bent remains (due to compression of aft-swept spreaders), the forestay is well-tensioned (control of headsail luff), the mainsail can be set flat
Phil
Bad shape of the genoa and jibs may also be due to bad control of the forestay, due to insufficient tension on the upper shrouds.
Badly controlled mainsails are also a souce of problems.
As the wind goes higher, the sail shape must be flatter.
This is obtained by higher tension on the foot for the lower part. And with mast bent at mid heigth. A common fault is to give too much tension on the lower shrouds, that prevents mast bent and increases heel and weather helm, even with tension on the backstay.
Trick to trim the mast properly...
Hoist the mainsail in light wind.
Release tension on the lower shrouds
Give high tension to the backstay to have the mast ben by 1.5 times the fore-and-aft section
Check if the mainsail can be set completely flat (or no more than 5% curvature).
In this configuration, adjust tension of the upper shrouds to "well-tensioned" and give just less tension on the lower shrouds.
So when you release the backstay tension, some mast bent remains (due to compression of aft-swept spreaders), the forestay is well-tensioned (control of headsail luff), the mainsail can be set flat
Phil
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From: adler1197 (forum-general@swift18.org)
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 12:00 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: Tacking through the wind
Hi Joe ... sorry I've caused some confusion! ....I definitely don't sail upwind on Genoa only - always with the main up, and quite often double reefed before I even think of reducing the genoa.
So the sequence for upwind sailing from full sail as the wind builds is;
1.Full main and Genoa with a little tension on backstay
2.Mainsail flattened with cunningham reef and a little more backstay tension.(And full Gen)
3.First reef in main, full backstay tension, full Gen.
4.Second reef in main, full backstay tension, full Gen.
5.Gardually reduce Genoa.
6.Turn off wind!!!!
I agree about the bowsprit - this surely is only meant for use with an asymmetric?
And one final piece of advice - always always sacrifice a littel pointing angle and keep up the boat speed. Anything less than say 3.5 knots and you're going sideways!!!
Dave
Phil De Troy www.MicroClass.org