Handicap woes

General chat of non-technical subjects related to sailing
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Hamblesailor
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Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:17 pm

Handicap woes

Post by Hamblesailor » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:56 pm

Wondering why I got hammered in the last club cruiser race (we sailed reasonably well) I took a look at the RYA's latest NHC baselist for handicapping.
According to this the S18 is a smidge slower than the GK24 and Hawk 20. S-18- 0.832 Gk and Hawk 0.835) I had a GK 24 a couple of boats ago and raced it against many of the same boats. We lapped many of the fleet in a 2 lap race in the GK. We finished last on the water by 10 mins in the S-18. Suffice to say a GK24 will sail rings around a Swift 18.
The following boats according to the RYA's list are SLOWER than a Swift 18:
Gem micro
International Folkboat
Sonata
Seal 22
Micro 18
Limbo 6.6
Contessa 26
Hunter 19
Hunter Medina
Jaguar 21
Trintella 29

And Etap 23 is exactly the same handicap as the s18

It is my belief that most, if not all of the above boats are actually quicker than a swift 18. During the race we were overtaken on a beam reach by a Contessa 26 sailing under mainsail alone.
Does anyone else share my belief that the Swift 18 has a rather punitive handicap on this new RYA cruiser scheme?

pancho
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Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:50 am
Location: Hamble

Handicap woes

Post by pancho » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:15 pm

Hi Still sorting Scoot talking to sailmakers re the best sail plan etc.
But will be looking at handicapping and then will comment !
Where is your racing ?
John

John L WebbJustplanesailing@yahoo.com (Justplanesailing@yahoo.com)
Performance car instructor

07715 323 324


On 16 Sep 2013, at 19:56, "Hamblesailor" <forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)> wrote:

Wondering why I got hammered in the last club cruiser race (we sailed reasonably well) I took a look at the RYA's latest NHC baselist for handicapping.
According to this the S18 is a smidge slower than the GK24 and Hawk 20. S-18- 0.832 Gk and Hawk 0.835) I had a GK 24 a couple of boats ago and raced it against many of the same boats. We lapped many of the fleet in a 2 lap race in the GK. We finished last on the water by 10 mins in the S-18. Suffice to say a GK24 will sail rings around a Swift 18.
The following boats according to the RYA's list are SLOWER than a Swift 18:
Gem micro
International Folkboat
Sonata
Seal 22
Micro 18
Limbo 6.6
Contessa 26
Hunter 19
Hunter Medina
Jaguar 21
Trintella 29

And Etap 23 is exactly the same handicap as the s18

It is my belief that most, if not all of the above boats are actually quicker than a swift 18. During the race we were overtaken on a beam reach by a Contessa 26 sailing under mainsail alone.
Does anyone else share my belief that the Swift 18 has a rather punitive handicap on this new RYA cruiser scheme?




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windsong
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Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:48 am
Location: Neath, Wales
Boat Name: Windsong
Sail Number: 133

Handicap woes

Post by windsong » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:50 pm

I don't race my Swift, but I definitely agree with you on the speed. The
swift 18 is a superb family cruising trailer sailor but trying to sail mine
to windward is like pulling teeth. I got into a friendly tussle with a Hawk
20 a few weeks ago on a long beat back to Dale and I was soundly beaten!!



-----Original Message-----
From: Hamblesailor [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 16 September 2013 19:56
To: forum-general@swift18.org
Subject: [Swift 18] Handicap woes

Wondering why I got hammered in the last club cruiser race (we sailed
reasonably well) I took a look at the RYA's latest NHC baselist for
handicapping.
According to this the S18 is a smidge slower than the GK24 and Hawk 20.
S-18- 0.832 Gk and Hawk 0.835) I had a GK 24 a couple of boats ago and
raced it against many of the same boats. We lapped many of the fleet in a 2
lap race in the GK. We finished last on the water by 10 mins in the S-18.
Suffice to say a GK24 will sail rings around a Swift 18.
The following boats according to the RYA's list are SLOWER than a Swift 18:
Gem micro
International Folkboat
Sonata
Seal 22
Micro 18
Limbo 6.6
Contessa 26
Hunter 19
Hunter Medina
Jaguar 21
Trintella 29

And Etap 23 is exactly the same handicap as the s18

It is my belief that most, if not all of the above boats are actually
quicker than a swift 18. During the race we were overtaken on a beam reach
by a Contessa 26 sailing under mainsail alone.
Does anyone else share my belief that the Swift 18 has a rather punitive
handicap on this new RYA cruiser scheme?




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celticair
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Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:33 pm
Location: Newlyn Cornwall

RYA PY Numbers

Post by celticair » Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:47 pm

Further to the queries on PY Numbers. Firstly performance. Since its first
evaluation the swift has moved on with smaller Jib-Genoas. So the sail area is
not 199 sq ft. This means the centre of effort and lateral resistance are out of
sequence. I fine the centreboard at 40 turns is too far down so the rig stalls going to windward. Try my test. Trim to sail to windward in a force 3.4. As you sail slowly bring the board up from max. You will soon find the right angle when the boat bits to windward and gently luffs in the gusts. Also check to see if the board is sloppy in the box (sideways). A sloppy board will slow you no end when you hit waves, The other issue is getting the Luff of the genoa tight.
Adjustment of the shrouds is critical as is mast rake. However the deck mounted mast gives me concern if too much down pressure is credited in a 25 year old hull. I am developing a modified sail plan with Solo sails. I think
110% Genoa is about optimum. I have done many years of RYA Annual
PY dinghy returns so I think its time to review the Swift's PY.
Kind regards, Martin. JaJa
I am enjoying JaJa having given up dinghy racing
after 61 years

pancho
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Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:50 am
Location: Hamble

Handicap woes

Post by pancho » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:45 pm

Although we have not as yet raced Scoot I feel all you have said is spot on the genoa is to large by far and the jib also needs to be sheeted in board with more roach ?
The keel needs to be shimmed ? To prevent slop and perhaps a profile on the trailing edge ?


Could I also ask has anybody fitted a transom mounted bracket for the outboard ? So the well can be faired in with dinghy bailers for self bailing.If so what make ?


John

Sent from John's iPad

On 12 Oct 2013, at 18:47, "celticair" <forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)> wrote:

Further to the queries on PY Numbers. Firstly performance. Since its first
evaluation the swift has moved on with smaller Jib-Genoas. So the sail area is
not 199 sq ft. This means the centre of effort and lateral resistance are out of
sequence. I fine the centreboard at 40 turns is too far down so the rig stalls going to windward. Try my test. Trim to sail to windward in a force 3.4. As you sail slowly bring the board up from max. You will soon find the right angle when the boat bits to windward and gently luffs in the gusts. Also check to see if the board is sloppy in the box (sideways). A sloppy board will slow you no end when you hit waves, The other issue is getting the Luff of the genoa tight.
Adjustment of the shrouds is critical as is mast rake. However the deck mounted mast gives me concern if too much down pressure is credited in a 25 year old hull. I am developing a modified sail plan with Solo sails. I think
110% Genoa is about optimum. I have done many years of RYA Annual
PY dinghy returns so I think its time to review the Swift's PY.
Kind regards, Martin. JaJa



I am enjoying JaJa having given up dinghy racing
after 61 years




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celticair
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Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:33 pm
Location: Newlyn Cornwall

Yardstick numbers

Post by celticair » Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:18 pm

Further to my earlier note I see that Byron Software services can
calculate personal PY numbers. Once my new sail plan is finalised I will submit the data to them. My in intial feeling is the Swift Number should be around
1130-1135 for sea sailing. Kind regards to all, Martin
I am enjoying JaJa having given up dinghy racing
after 61 years

John Hainsworth
Cruising
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:07 am
Location: Poole Dorset

Handicap woes

Post by John Hainsworth » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:24 pm

Hi Martin,

Interesting info. My Swift had grounded before I bought her and there was cracking where the hatch garage met the deck. I have reinforced the base of the tabernacle and inserted a stainless steel strip under the garage to take the pressure. My previous boat was a Skipper 17. The chainplates on that were fitted to the deck. I extended the shrouds and fixed the chainplates to the hull which was a far stronger method and stopped the deck lifting around the join with the hull. If you are looking at a new sail plan have you worked out how essential the back stay is? I don't race so I rarely use it. Could the sail plan & rig be adapted to use a shorter mast? If so it would make raising and lowering the mast so much easier.

Cheers
John (Taranaki - Poole Harbour)

On 12/10/2013 18:47, celticair wrote:
Further to the queries on PY Numbers. Firstly performance. Since its first
evaluation the swift has moved on with smaller Jib-Genoas. So the sail area is
not 199 sq ft. This means the centre of effort and lateral resistance are out of
sequence. I fine the centreboard at 40 turns is too far down so the rig stalls going to windward. Try my test. Trim to sail to windward in a force 3.4. As you sail slowly bring the board up from max. You will soon find the right angle when the boat bits to windward and gently luffs in the gusts. Also check to see if the board is sloppy in the box (sideways). A sloppy board will slow you no end when you hit waves, The other issue is getting the Luff of the genoa tight.
Adjustment of the shrouds is critical as is mast rake. However the deck mounted mast gives me concern if too much down pressure is credited in a 25 year old hull. I am developing a modified sail plan with Solo sails. I think
110% Genoa is about optimum. I have done many years of RYA Annual
PY dinghy returns so I think its time to review the Swift's PY.
Kind regards, Martin. JaJa



I am enjoying JaJa having given up dinghy racing
after 61 years





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Colne Bar
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Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:07 am
Location: East Coast

Post by Colne Bar » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:03 pm

Could I also ask has anybody fitted a transom mounted bracket for the outboard ? So the well can be faired in with dinghy bailers for self bailing.If so what make ?
I've fitted a lifting transom mount bracket (sorry I don't know the make, but it is a fairly standard design) for a Yamaha 2.5.
Definite speed advantage when the outboard is lifted, even though I haven't built a blanking plug for the well. Other advantages are a quieter cockpit environment when motoring and my tillerpilot is happier as it was previously affected by close proximity of the strong magnets contained in the o/b.
Disadvantages are harder access to engine controls and the propellor is only just deep enough in the lowered position - it sometimes cavitates in big waves or if I walk forward to the bow.

I don't know if this modification would be considered 'class legal' if racing?

Brio
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Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:55 am
Location: Carrick Roads, Cornwall
Boat Name: Brio
Sail Number: GBR2949L

Pointing or not

Post by Brio » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:31 pm

Brio has a very deep genoa. Whilst competing in our local regatta in August we found ourselves classed with PY dinghies. Our first leg was a close reach for most but we had to tack down the river. The committee boat had gone home for tea by the time we finished our second lap!
A couple of weeks later, my wife and I were beating up Carrick Roads and hoping to get to Mylor for lunch. The tacks were so flat that lunch was looking unlikely. I decided to roll in some genoa to the point where the clew was just about level with the mast. (I should point out we have a foam padded luff so the sail still shapes perfectly.)
As soon as I had done that, we gained about 20 degrees upwind. Of course the genoa was rolled down about two feet from the head of the jib foil but we did make it to Mylor very quickly after that.
I guess the next plan is to try Martins centreplate winding with the full genoa.
There is another Swift named Eeyore that sails locally with the rainbow sails. They always go closer to the wind than us and their jib is much smaller!

John Hainsworth
Cruising
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:07 am
Location: Poole Dorset

Handicap woes

Post by John Hainsworth » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:05 am

I have an original jib, no foam padding and a bit stretched and have found that rolling the jib in a bit and tightening up the lazy sheet gives me a nice curve and better pointing. I have also found that I sail bows down in a blow.

On 14/10/2013 22:31, Brio wrote:
Brio has a very deep genoa. Whilst competing in our local regatta in August we found ourselves classed with PY dinghies. Our first leg was a close reach for most but we had to tack down the river. The committee boat had gone home for tea by the time we finished our second lap!
A couple of weeks later, my wife and I were beating up Carrick Roads and hoping to get to Mylor for lunch. The tacks were so flat that lunch was looking unlikely. I decided to roll in some genoa to the point where the clew was just about level with the mast. (I should point out we have a foam padded luff so the sail still shapes perfectly.)
As soon as I had done that, we gained about 20 degrees upwind. Of course the genoa was rolled down about two feet from the head of the jib foil but we did make it to Mylor very quickly after that.
I guess the next plan is to try Martins centreplate winding with the full genoa.
There is another Swift named Eeyore that sails locally with the rainbow sails. They always go closer to the wind than us and their jib is much smaller!





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John Hainsworth
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Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:07 am
Location: Poole Dorset

Handicap woes

Post by John Hainsworth » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:10 am

I prefer the well as it keeps the engine (Yamaha Malta 3hp) on the centre line and does not cavitate. Also it is easier to fill and does not have to be lifted over the transom. Previous mail for modification to well which allows water and fumes to flow and engine to be lifted.

On 14/10/2013 18:03, Colne Bar wrote:
Quote: Could I also ask has anybody fitted a transom mounted bracket for the outboard ? So the well can be faired in with dinghy bailers for self bailing.If so what make ?

I've fitted a lifting transom mount bracket (sorry I don't know the make, but it is a fairly standard design) for a Yamaha 2.5.
Definite speed advantage when the outboard is lifted, even though I haven't built a blanking plug for the well. Other advantages are a quieter cockpit environment when motoring and my tillerpilot is happier as it was previously affected by close proximity of the strong magnets contained in the o/b.
Disadvantages are harder access to engine controls and the propellor is only just deep enough in the lowered position - it sometimes cavitates in big waves or if I walk forward to the bow.

I don't know if this modification would be considered 'class legal' if racing?





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celticair
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Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:33 pm
Location: Newlyn Cornwall

Yardstick numbers and sail setting.

Post by celticair » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:22 pm

I note all the comments on outboards. Does anyone know if the original PY
was with an outboard in the well? There is a considerable difference in numbers for yachts with propellers and those without (See Folkboat variants).
I also notice from history pictures that the original non furling genoa was cut with the foot much closer to the sheer line which adds to the need for a re-evaluation of the swift py for current racing. I will request an evaluation from Byron when I have finalized my new rig with a 115% Genoa which appears to be the optimum. In trying to help those helms with pointing problems with genoas may I suggest putting tell tails on the main about 12 ins
back from the mast and on the genoa 12ins back from the luff and again
when the sail is inline with the mast. When on the beat look to see how true
the air flow is through the sail slot and or how much disturbance there is.
With older sails you may find the leach is slack and needs more tension though the old system of using a barber hauler. I hope this all helps.
Kind regards to all Swift owners. Martin
I am enjoying JaJa having given up dinghy racing
after 61 years

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