want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

cris75 · Post by **cris75** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:00 am

Helo everyone,

Looking on the internet for a sailing boat I came upon a Swift 18. Now I'm looking for more info about this boat. In The Netherlands, where I live, the Swift 18 is not a very popular model, don't know why. Finding info is pretty difficult. So what I would like know:
- Maybe someone can tel me what the new price for this boat is (manufactured in 1990) or, even better, maybe someone has info about the manufacturer (website/email).
- Also I'm interested in your opinion about this boat regarding the price, the year and the quality (link is at the bottom).

http://www.botentekoop.nl/zeiljachten/7 ... -1990.html

Hopefully I can spread the Swift word around in the Netherlands after this.

Best regards

Cris

Terry · Post by **Terry** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:59 pm

Hi Cris,
Expect to pay around £4500 for a good boat (£5000 for a very good one.) Marlin International was the last firm to produce Swifts. I don’t know what the going rate for a new boat was when production ceased in the nineties; however, I understand that a firm called boat4fun have acquired the moulds and are preparing a boat for RCD certification with a view to going into production in the near future. At this time I have no idea what the new boat will retail for or whether production is still ongoing. Have a look at www.boats4fun.co.uk.
Best of luck with your search for the right boat.
Regards Terry

whiteede · Post by **whiteede** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:38 am

Veel groeten Cris
Hebben jullie kijken (oh dear, must go into English) at the (British) Swift website - http://www.swift18.org/

It has useful info with a copy of the original sales doc. Basically the Swift 18 is a design originally constructed for the French microcup race contest max length 18 feet – 5.5m. it is a very light boat and sails more like a dinghy than a yacht: she will heel readily. Also the weight/size means it is trailerable. The semi planning hull means that it goes very well with the chute (spinnaker) up and gives exhilarating sailing. Having said that she is not a really fast boat. The sandwich hull construction makes her unsinkable.
Tot ziens
Philip
‘Nuestro’
From: cris75 [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 05 September 2010 12:01
To: forum-general@swift18.org
Subject: [Swift 18] want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Helo everyone,

Looking on the internet for a sailing boat I came upon a Swift 18. Now I'm looking for more info about this boat. In The Netherlands, where I live, the Swift 18 is not a very popular model, don't know why. So finding info is pretty difficult. So what I would like know:
- Maybe someone can tel me what the new price for this boat is (manufactured in 1990) or, even better, maybe some has some info about the manufacturer (website/email).
- Also I'm interested in your opinion about this boat regarding the price, the year and the quality (link is at the bottom).

http://www.botentekoop.nl/zeiljachten/7 ... -1990.html

Hopefully I can spread the Swift word around in the Netherlands after this.

Best regards

Cris

Ola

Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

Terry · Post by **Terry** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:12 am

At a displacement of around 650k (when weighed many are a good bit more) swifts are light but not that light for a micro cupper.

whiteede wrote:Veel groeten Cris
Hebben jullie kijken (oh dear, must go into English) at the (British) Swift website - http://www.swift18.org/

It has useful info with a copy of the original sales doc. Basically the Swift 18 is a design originally constructed for the French microcup race contest max length 18 feet – 5.5m. it is a very light boat and sails more like a dinghy than a yacht: she will heel readily. Also the weight/size means it is trailerable. The semi planning hull means that it goes very well with the chute (spinnaker) up and gives exhilarating sailing. Having said that she is not a really fast boat. The sandwich hull construction makes her unsinkable.
Tot ziens
Philip
‘Nuestro’
From: cris75 [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 05 September 2010 12:01
To: forum-general@swift18.org
Subject: [Swift 18] want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Helo everyone,

Looking on the internet for a sailing boat I came upon a Swift 18. Now I'm looking for more info about this boat. In The Netherlands, where I live, the Swift 18 is not a very popular model, don't know why. So finding info is pretty difficult. So what I would like know:
- Maybe someone can tel me what the new price for this boat is (manufactured in 1990) or, even better, maybe some has some info about the manufacturer (website/email).
- Also I'm interested in your opinion about this boat regarding the price, the year and the quality (link is at the bottom).

http://www.botentekoop.nl/zeiljachten/7 ... -1990.html

Hopefully I can spread the Swift word around in the Netherlands after this.

Best regards

Cris

Ola

Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

Phil De Troy · Post by **Phil De Troy** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:39 pm

Target weight for Micro Cup is 560 kg (1235 Lbs) in Cruiser division... But only new designs from Poland, Latvia and Russia manage to gather minimum weight, stability requirements and performance. three years ago, weights of 600 kg (approx 1320 lbs) or more were common on new productions.
Stability requirements for a Micro Cruiser are also at the low side, so I'm very surprised when one writes the boat "sails more like a dinghy than a yacht" and "heels readily"... he doesn't know our boats. Anyway I'm also working on improvement of the rules in order to enforce safety, the target should be an angle of vanishing stability 103 degrees for Micro Protos and Racers, 105 degrees for Cruisers...

The initial target of the class rules were also to produce boats with total weight on trailer (with anchor, chain and sails in the car) no more than 750 kg (1653 Lbs), it means in most of European countries an unbraked trailer, no additional insurance, no registration of the trailer (same plate as the car), no technical control... However this target cannot be achieved with production boats, I didn't find any combination of boat really at limit weight and trailer under 210 (Racer) or 190 kg (Cruiser).

For those who are also interested by competition, there is a "Micro Championship" in Manningtree, Essex, on October 9th-10th, apply to Stour Sailing Club micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk)
For Dutch owners, "Na Braassem" on September 18th-19th ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org)
Only well performing crew are recommended to join the best of the World on Plate Taille lake, Belgium, on October 16th-17th meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be)

Phil

----- Original Message -----
From: Terry (forum-general@swift18.org)
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 12:12 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

At a displacement of around 650k (when weighed many are a good bit more) swifts are light but not that light for a micro cupper.

whiteede wrote: Veel groeten Cris
Hebben jullie kijken (oh dear, must go into English) at the (British) Swift website - http://www.swift18.org/

It has useful info with a copy of the original sales doc. Basically the Swift 18 is a design originally constructed for the French microcup race contest max length 18 feet – 5.5m. it is a very light boat and sails more like a dinghy than a yacht: she will heel readily. Also the weight/size means it is trailerable. The semi planning hull means that it goes very well with the chute (spinnaker) up and gives exhilarating sailing. Having said that she is not a really fast boat. The sandwich hull construction makes her unsinkable.
Tot ziens
Philip
‘Nuestro’
From: cris75 [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 05 September 2010 12:01
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Subject: [Swift 18] want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Helo everyone,

Looking on the internet for a sailing boat I came upon a Swift 18. Now I'm looking for more info about this boat. In The Netherlands, where I live, the Swift 18 is not a very popular model, don't know why. So finding info is pretty difficult. So what I would like know:
- Maybe someone can tel me what the new price for this boat is (manufactured in 1990) or, even better, maybe some has some info about the manufacturer (website/email).
- Also I'm interested in your opinion about this boat regarding the price, the year and the quality (link is at the bottom).

http://www.botentekoop.nl/zeiljachten/7 ... -1990.html

Hopefully I can spread the Swift word around in the Netherlands after this.

Best regards

Cris

Ola

Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

Terry · Post by **Terry** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:39 pm

Actually, the theoretical weight of a swift is supposed to be 660k but when I actually weighed mine at a weighbridge it came out at 720k and, with the trailer, 1120k. I don't think mine is exceptional. I've seen several other boats lower in the water than mine carrying similar amounts of gear and crew.
Although most cars would be OK with this, by the time outboard, dinghies and all the other stuff that tends to be chucked in, owners with small cars need to be careful about whether they are legal.

whiteede · Post by **whiteede** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:24 am

I rather take umbrage these somewhat officious comments. In the context of aiding a newcomer by saying a ‘light boat’ I am comparing it with conventional heavier keeled yachts. Also, it is a simple fact and commonly accepted, that Swifts heel readily in a decent breeze, it’s part of their attraction, for heaven’s sake. You otherwise contradict yourself in saying ‘Stability requirements for a Micro Cruiser are also at the low side’. If you haven’t noticed I SAIL ONE.
Philip
‘Nuestro’

From: Phil De Troy [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 09 September 2010 13:40
To: forum-general@swift18.org
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Target weight for Micro Cup is 560 kg (1235 Lbs) in Cruiser division... But only new designs from Poland, Latvia and Russia manage to gather minimum weight, stability requirements and performance. three years ago, weights of 600 kg (approx 1320 lbs) or more were common on new productions.
Stability requirements for a Micro Cruiser are also at the low side, so I'm very surprised when one writes the boat "sails more like a dinghy than a yacht" and "heels readily"... he doesn't know our boats. Anyway I'm also working on improvement of the rules in order to enforce safety, the target should be an angle of vanishing stability 103 degrees for Micro Protos and Racers, 105 degrees for Cruisers...

The initial target of the class rules were also to produce boats with total weight on trailer (with anchor, chain and sails in the car) no more than 750 kg (1653 Lbs), it means in most of European countries an unbraked trailer, no additional insurance, no registration of the trailer (same plate as the car), no technical control... However this target cannot be achieved with production boats, I didn't find any combination of boat really at limit weight and trailer under 210 (Racer) or 190 kg (Cruiser).

For those who are also interested by competition, there is a "Micro Championship" in Manningtree, Essex, on October 9th-10th, apply to Stour Sailing Club micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk) (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk))
For Dutch owners, "Na Braassem" on September 18th-19th ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org) (ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org))
Only well performing crew are recommended to join the best of the World on Plate Taille lake, Belgium, on October 16th-17th meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be) (meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be))

Phil
:
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org))
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org))
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 12:12 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

At a displacement of around 650k (when weighed many are a good bit more) swifts are light but not that light for a micro cupper.

whiteede wrote: Veel groeten Cris
Hebben jullie kijken (oh dear, must go into English) at the (British) Swift website - http://www.swift18.org/

It has useful info with a copy of the original sales doc. Basically the Swift 18 is a design originally constructed for the French microcup race contest max length 18 feet – 5.5m. it is a very light boat and sails more like a dinghy than a yacht: she will heel readily. Also the weight/size means it is trailerable. The semi planning hull means that it goes very well with the chute (spinnaker) up and gives exhilarating sailing. Having said that she is not a really fast boat. The sandwich hull construction makes her unsinkable.
Tot ziens
Philip
‘Nuestro’
From: cris75 [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 05 September 2010 12:01
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org))
Subject: [Swift 18] want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Helo everyone,

Looking on the internet for a sailing boat I came upon a Swift 18. Now I'm looking for more info about this boat. In The Netherlands, where I live, the Swift 18 is not a very popular model, don't know why. So finding info is pretty difficult. So what I would like know:
- Maybe someone can tel me what the new price for this boat is (manufactured in 1990) or, even better, maybe some has some info about the manufacturer (website/email).
- Also I'm interested in your opinion about this boat regarding the price, the year and the quality (link is at the bottom).

http://www.botentekoop.nl/zeiljachten/7 ... -1990.html

Hopefully I can spread the Swift word around in the Netherlands after this.

Best regards

Cris

Ola

Phil De Troy www.MicroClass.org

Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

Phil De Troy · Post by **Phil De Troy** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:45 pm

When I'm stating that Class Rules for the stability of a Micro Cruiser are at the low side, it's taken from a long experience. Last year I measured for certification a new Russian boat 'Elektra 18' (very nice but expensive, see also http://www.go-neptune.org/forums/viewto ... f=8&t=1411 (in French). Weighing was far above standards (670 kg) but when I went onboard, I had not really the impression she was a racing boat. Stability tests confirmed she was a quite comfortable cruiser, but probably no good racing boat in this configuration. We asked the manufacturer to remove 3 blocks of 25 kg under the floor, and now... The boat was performing well in stability tests, nice to handle and fast. This was confirmed in the World Championship.
But lack of stability (in winds force 6...) was evident during the World Championship 2009 see http://www.go-neptune.org/forums/viewto ... 289#p15289 after the first 3 pictures showing a Micro Proto in uncomfortable position.

I sailed other small Cruisers, 16 to 22 ft, there is no miracle, theay are all heeling quickly anyway, crews coming from the dinghy world will enjoy, others downgrading from larger boats can be surprised or even frightened...
Let's hope that your boats are also meeting the buoyancy requirements of the Class like mine http://jamais203.detroy.org/album/09-2.html... Some Russian boats didn't in 2009!

Phil

----- Original Message -----
From: whiteede (forum-general@swift18.org)
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:25 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

I rather take umbrage these somewhat officious comments. In the context of aiding a newcomer by saying a ‘light boat’ I am comparing it with conventional heavier keeled yachts. Also, it is a simple fact and commonly accepted, that Swifts heel readily in a decent breeze, it’s part of their attraction, for heaven’s sake. You otherwise contradict yourself in saying ‘Stability requirements for a Micro Cruiser are also at the low side’. If you haven’t noticed I SAIL ONE.
Philip
‘Nuestro’

From: Phil De Troy [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 09 September 2010 13:40
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Target weight for Micro Cup is 560 kg (1235 Lbs) in Cruiser division... But only new designs from Poland, Latvia and Russia manage to gather minimum weight, stability requirements and performance. three years ago, weights of 600 kg (approx 1320 lbs) or more were common on new productions.
Stability requirements for a Micro Cruiser are also at the low side, so I'm very surprised when one writes the boat "sails more like a dinghy than a yacht" and "heels readily"... he doesn't know our boats. Anyway I'm also working on improvement of the rules in order to enforce safety, the target should be an angle of vanishing stability 103 degrees for Micro Protos and Racers, 105 degrees for Cruisers...

The initial target of the class rules were also to produce boats with total weight on trailer (with anchor, chain and sails in the car) no more than 750 kg (1653 Lbs), it means in most of European countries an unbraked trailer, no additional insurance, no registration of the trailer (same plate as the car), no technical control... However this target cannot be achieved with production boats, I didn't find any combination of boat really at limit weight and trailer under 210 (Racer) or 190 kg (Cruiser).

For those who are also interested by competition, there is a "Micro Championship" in Manningtree, Essex, on October 9th-10th, apply to Stour Sailing Club micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk) (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk)) (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk)))
For Dutch owners, "Na Braassem" on September 18th-19th ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org) (ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org)) (ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org)))
Only well performing crew are recommended to join the best of the World on Plate Taille lake, Belgium, on October 16th-17th meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be) (meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be)) (meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be)))

Phil
:
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)))
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)))
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 12:12 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

At a displacement of around 650k (when weighed many are a good bit more) swifts are light but not that light for a micro cupper.

whiteede wrote: Veel groeten Cris
Hebben jullie kijken (oh dear, must go into English) at the (British) Swift website - http://www.swift18.org/

It has useful info with a copy of the original sales doc. Basically the Swift 18 is a design originally constructed for the French microcup race contest max length 18 feet – 5.5m. it is a very light boat and sails more like a dinghy than a yacht: she will heel readily. Also the weight/size means it is trailerable. The semi planning hull means that it goes very well with the chute (spinnaker) up and gives exhilarating sailing. Having said that she is not a really fast boat. The sandwich hull construction makes her unsinkable.
Tot ziens
Philip
‘Nuestro’
From: cris75 [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 05 September 2010 12:01
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)))
Subject: [Swift 18] want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Helo everyone,

Looking on the internet for a sailing boat I came upon a Swift 18. Now I'm looking for more info about this boat. In The Netherlands, where I live, the Swift 18 is not a very popular model, don't know why. So finding info is pretty difficult. So what I would like know:
- Maybe someone can tel me what the new price for this boat is (manufactured in 1990) or, even better, maybe some has some info about the manufacturer (website/email).
- Also I'm interested in your opinion about this boat regarding the price, the year and the quality (link is at the bottom).

http://www.botentekoop.nl/zeiljachten/7 ... -1990.html

Hopefully I can spread the Swift word around in the Netherlands after this.

Best regards

Cris

Ola

Phil De Troy www.MicroClass.org

Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

Terry · Post by **Terry** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:38 pm

I’m not quite sure whether you’re taking umbrage over my comments but on the issue of swifts being heavy or light these are really subjective terms. It all depends on what previous experience one has had. When I moved from a wanderer dinghy to a swift it felt a massive move up. No doubt if ones experience of sailing was crewing on 30 footers then things would feel a lot more flighty. As it happens, I was talking to several other swift owners only today and the general opinion was that swifts had quite a ‘big boat’ feel.
My comment was about weight rather than feel and was based on the fact that I have actually weighed one which proved to be heavier than that stated by the manufacturer. I repeat that with a manufacturer’s weight estimate of 660k, swifts are (slightly) at the heavier end in the microcup scale. However, I think I did agree that, generally, swifts were light just not that light. Regardless of this, for the life of me I cannot see why this should any more discourage than encourage newcomers.
If my comment appeared officious, I sincerely apologise.
Regards Terry

whiteede wrote:I rather take umbrage these somewhat officious comments. In the context of aiding a newcomer by saying a ‘light boat’ I am comparing it with conventional heavier keeled yachts. Also, it is a simple fact and commonly accepted, that Swifts heel readily in a decent breeze, it’s part of their attraction, for heaven’s sake. You otherwise contradict yourself in saying ‘Stability requirements for a Micro Cruiser are also at the low side’. If you haven’t noticed I SAIL ONE.
Philip
‘Nuestro’

From: Phil De Troy [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 09 September 2010 13:40
To: forum-general@swift18.org
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Target weight for Micro Cup is 560 kg (1235 Lbs) in Cruiser division... But only new designs from Poland, Latvia and Russia manage to gather minimum weight, stability requirements and performance. three years ago, weights of 600 kg (approx 1320 lbs) or more were common on new productions.
Stability requirements for a Micro Cruiser are also at the low side, so I'm very surprised when one writes the boat "sails more like a dinghy than a yacht" and "heels readily"... he doesn't know our boats. Anyway I'm also working on improvement of the rules in order to enforce safety, the target should be an angle of vanishing stability 103 degrees for Micro Protos and Racers, 105 degrees for Cruisers...

The initial target of the class rules were also to produce boats with total weight on trailer (with anchor, chain and sails in the car) no more than 750 kg (1653 Lbs), it means in most of European countries an unbraked trailer, no additional insurance, no registration of the trailer (same plate as the car), no technical control... However this target cannot be achieved with production boats, I didn't find any combination of boat really at limit weight and trailer under 210 (Racer) or 190 kg (Cruiser).

For those who are also interested by competition, there is a "Micro Championship" in Manningtree, Essex, on October 9th-10th, apply to Stour Sailing Club micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk) (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk))
For Dutch owners, "Na Braassem" on September 18th-19th ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org) (ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org))
Only well performing crew are recommended to join the best of the World on Plate Taille lake, Belgium, on October 16th-17th meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be) (meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be))

Phil
:
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org))
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org))
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 12:12 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

At a displacement of around 650k (when weighed many are a good bit more) swifts are light but not that light for a micro cupper.

whiteede wrote: Veel groeten Cris
Hebben jullie kijken (oh dear, must go into English) at the (British) Swift website - http://www.swift18.org/

It has useful info with a copy of the original sales doc. Basically the Swift 18 is a design originally constructed for the French microcup race contest max length 18 feet – 5.5m. it is a very light boat and sails more like a dinghy than a yacht: she will heel readily. Also the weight/size means it is trailerable. The semi planning hull means that it goes very well with the chute (spinnaker) up and gives exhilarating sailing. Having said that she is not a really fast boat. The sandwich hull construction makes her unsinkable.
Tot ziens
Philip
‘Nuestro’
From: cris75 [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 05 September 2010 12:01
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org))
Subject: [Swift 18] want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Helo everyone,

Looking on the internet for a sailing boat I came upon a Swift 18. Now I'm looking for more info about this boat. In The Netherlands, where I live, the Swift 18 is not a very popular model, don't know why. So finding info is pretty difficult. So what I would like know:
- Maybe someone can tel me what the new price for this boat is (manufactured in 1990) or, even better, maybe some has some info about the manufacturer (website/email).
- Also I'm interested in your opinion about this boat regarding the price, the year and the quality (link is at the bottom).

http://www.botentekoop.nl/zeiljachten/7 ... -1990.html

Hopefully I can spread the Swift word around in the Netherlands after this.

Best regards

Cris

Ola

Phil De Troy www.MicroClass.org

Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

whiteede · Post by **whiteede** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:56 pm

Dear Terry, thanks you for your comments, which are and were anyway sound. I was in fact referring to Phil de Troy’s seemingly strange and confusing comments implying that Swifts don’t sail like dinghies, and therefore I don’t know the boats. He has since sent links to French websites showing micro cuppers capsizing and being righted just like dinghies! Which illustrates the comment I made. I confess that I haven’t capsized mine though, but I do hang out of the rails! I accept that Swifts aren’t the lightest of MC boats, and that weight is subjective – again ,the intended essence of my original comment.
Thank you again. I hope that we can close this dialogue now.

Tight sheets.
Philip
‘Nuestro’

From: Terry [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 12 September 2010 18:38
To: forum-general@swift18.org
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

I’m not quite sure whether you’re taking umbrage over my comments but on the issue of swifts being heavy or light these are really subjective terms. It all depends on what previous experience one has had. When I moved from a wanderer dinghy to a swift it felt a massive move up. No doubt if ones experience of sailing was crewing on 30 footers then things would feel a lot more flighty. As it happens, I was talking to several other swift owners only today and the general opinion was that swifts had quite a ‘big boat’ feel.
My comment was about weight rather than feel and was based on the fact that I have actually weighed one which proved to be heavier than that stated by the manufacturer. I repeat that with a manufacturer’s weight estimate of 660k, swifts are (slightly) at the heavier end in the microcup scale. However, I think I did agree that, generally, swifts were light just not that light. Regardless of this, for the life of me I cannot see why this should any more discourage than encourage newcomers.
If my comment appeared officious, I sincerely apologise.
Regards Terry

whiteede wrote:
I rather take umbrage these somewhat officious comments. In the context of aiding a newcomer by saying a ‘light boat’ I am comparing it with conventional heavier keeled yachts. Also, it is a simple fact and commonly accepted, that Swifts heel readily in a decent breeze, it’s part of their attraction, for heaven’s sake. You otherwise contradict yourself in saying ‘Stability requirements for a Micro Cruiser are also at the low side’. If you haven’t noticed I SAIL ONE.
Philip
‘Nuestro’

From: Phil De Troy [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 09 September 2010 13:40
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Target weight for Micro Cup is 560 kg (1235 Lbs) in Cruiser division... But only new designs from Poland, Latvia and Russia manage to gather minimum weight, stability requirements and performance. three years ago, weights of 600 kg (approx 1320 lbs) or more were common on new productions.
Stability requirements for a Micro Cruiser are also at the low side, so I'm very surprised when one writes the boat "sails more like a dinghy than a yacht" and "heels readily"... he doesn't know our boats. Anyway I'm also working on improvement of the rules in order to enforce safety, the target should be an angle of vanishing stability 103 degrees for Micro Protos and Racers, 105 degrees for Cruisers...

The initial target of the class rules were also to produce boats with total weight on trailer (with anchor, chain and sails in the car) no more than 750 kg (1653 Lbs), it means in most of European countries an unbraked trailer, no additional insurance, no registration of the trailer (same plate as the car), no technical control... However this target cannot be achieved with production boats, I didn't find any combination of boat really at limit weight and trailer under 210 (Racer) or 190 kg (Cruiser).

For those who are also interested by competition, there is a "Micro Championship" in Manningtree, Essex, on October 9th-10th, apply to Stour Sailing Club micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk) (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk)) (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk)))
For Dutch owners, "Na Braassem" on September 18th-19th ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org) (ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org)) (ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org)))
Only well performing crew are recommended to join the best of the World on Plate Taille lake, Belgium, on October 16th-17th meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be) (meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be)) (meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be)))

Phil
:
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)))
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)))
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 12:12 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

At a displacement of around 650k (when weighed many are a good bit more) swifts are light but not that light for a micro cupper.

whiteede wrote: Veel groeten Cris
Hebben jullie kijken (oh dear, must go into English) at the (British) Swift website - http://www.swift18.org/

It has useful info with a copy of the original sales doc. Basically the Swift 18 is a design originally constructed for the French microcup race contest max length 18 feet – 5.5m. it is a very light boat and sails more like a dinghy than a yacht: she will heel readily. Also the weight/size means it is trailerable. The semi planning hull means that it goes very well with the chute (spinnaker) up and gives exhilarating sailing. Having said that she is not a really fast boat. The sandwich hull construction makes her unsinkable.
Tot ziens
Philip
‘Nuestro’
From: cris75 [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 05 September 2010 12:01
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)))
Subject: [Swift 18] want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Helo everyone,

Looking on the internet for a sailing boat I came upon a Swift 18. Now I'm looking for more info about this boat. In The Netherlands, where I live, the Swift 18 is not a very popular model, don't know why. So finding info is pretty difficult. So what I would like know:
- Maybe someone can tel me what the new price for this boat is (manufactured in 1990) or, even better, maybe some has some info about the manufacturer (website/email).
- Also I'm interested in your opinion about this boat regarding the price, the year and the quality (link is at the bottom).

http://www.botentekoop.nl/zeiljachten/7 ... -1990.html

Hopefully I can spread the Swift word around in the Netherlands after this.

Best regards

Cris

Ola

Phil De Troy www.MicroClass.org

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Terry · Post by **Terry** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:22 am

Hi Phil, after reading your points about mico’s cruisers target AVS as 105 I came across a calculator for AVS on www.sailingusa.info/cal__avs.htm and decided to key in a swift’s data, derived from JCA brochure, which was as follows;
Displacement weight (1450 lbs)
Ballast (375lbs)
Beam (8 foot)
Draft excluding keel (.75feet)

The resulting AVS came out at 113.75.
Of course I recognise that this calculation is far from the whole story. For instance the calculator asks for weight rather than displacement, will this be the same? The ballast figure in the brochure only refers to the ballasted keel and the above formula does not take account of either form stability or were exactly the ballast is concentrated (in the swifts case, almost all in the keel). I would have thought, however, that the latter of these variables would have a positive effect on a swift’s AVS. Is this right?
Be gentle with me, my physics is not that good!
Regards Terry
(A retired saddo with not much else to do on a wet day)

Phil De Troy wrote:Target weight for Micro Cup is 560 kg (1235 Lbs) in Cruiser division... But only new designs from Poland, Latvia and Russia manage to gather minimum weight, stability requirements and performance. three years ago, weights of 600 kg (approx 1320 lbs) or more were common on new productions.
Stability requirements for a Micro Cruiser are also at the low side, so I'm very surprised when one writes the boat "sails more like a dinghy than a yacht" and "heels readily"... he doesn't know our boats. Anyway I'm also working on improvement of the rules in order to enforce safety, the target should be an angle of vanishing stability 103 degrees for Micro Protos and Racers, 105 degrees for Cruisers...

The initial target of the class rules were also to produce boats with total weight on trailer (with anchor, chain and sails in the car) no more than 750 kg (1653 Lbs), it means in most of European countries an unbraked trailer, no additional insurance, no registration of the trailer (same plate as the car), no technical control... However this target cannot be achieved with production boats, I didn't find any combination of boat really at limit weight and trailer under 210 (Racer) or 190 kg (Cruiser).

For those who are also interested by competition, there is a "Micro Championship" in Manningtree, Essex, on October 9th-10th, apply to Stour Sailing Club micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk)
For Dutch owners, "Na Braassem" on September 18th-19th ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org)
Only well performing crew are recommended to join the best of the World on Plate Taille lake, Belgium, on October 16th-17th meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be)

Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry (forum-general@swift18.org)
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 12:12 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

At a displacement of around 650k (when weighed many are a good bit more) swifts are light but not that light for a micro cupper.

whiteede wrote: Veel groeten Cris
Hebben jullie kijken (oh dear, must go into English) at the (British) Swift website - http://www.swift18.org/

It has useful info with a copy of the original sales doc. Basically the Swift 18 is a design originally constructed for the French microcup race contest max length 18 feet – 5.5m. it is a very light boat and sails more like a dinghy than a yacht: she will heel readily. Also the weight/size means it is trailerable. The semi planning hull means that it goes very well with the chute (spinnaker) up and gives exhilarating sailing. Having said that she is not a really fast boat. The sandwich hull construction makes her unsinkable.
Tot ziens
Philip
‘Nuestro’
From: cris75 [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 05 September 2010 12:01
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Subject: [Swift 18] want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Helo everyone,

Looking on the internet for a sailing boat I came upon a Swift 18. Now I'm looking for more info about this boat. In The Netherlands, where I live, the Swift 18 is not a very popular model, don't know why. So finding info is pretty difficult. So what I would like know:
- Maybe someone can tel me what the new price for this boat is (manufactured in 1990) or, even better, maybe some has some info about the manufacturer (website/email).
- Also I'm interested in your opinion about this boat regarding the price, the year and the quality (link is at the bottom).

http://www.botentekoop.nl/zeiljachten/7 ... -1990.html

Hopefully I can spread the Swift word around in the Netherlands after this.

Best regards

Cris

Ola

Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

Phil De Troy · Post by **Phil De Troy** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:44 am

Gives 113.39 for my boat in present condition, lifts just 10kg/22lbs on mast top (15kg/33Lbs required for Cruisers)
With the numbers of early 2009 when the boat capsized, 112.1

The effective ABS (live tested) is 102.2

I'm preparing a dedicated tool for Micros (coming soon), based on same data, but separating in-hull and outer ballast, and needing a stability test at 90 degrees, mast length, mast above sheer distance, freeboard at mast station.

Phil

----- Original Message -----
From: Terry (forum-general@swift18.org)
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 1:22 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Hi Phil, after reading your points about mico’s cruisers target AVS as 105 I came across a calculator for AVS on www.sailingusa.info/cal__avs.htm and decided to key in a swift’s data, derived from JCA brochure, which was as follows;
Displacement weight (1450 lbs)
Ballast (375lbs)
Beam (8 foot)
Draft excluding keel (.75feet)

The resulting AVS came out at 113.75.
Of course I recognise that this calculation is far from the whole story. For instance the calculator asks for weight rather than displacement, will this be the same? The ballast figure in the brochure only refers to the ballasted keel and the above formula does not take account of either form stability or were exactly the ballast is concentrated (in the swifts case, almost all in the keel). I would have thought, however, that the latter of these variables would have a positive effect on a swift’s AVS. Is this right?
Be gentle with me, my physics is not that good!
Regards Terry
(A retired saddo with not much else to do on a wet day)

Phil De Troy wrote: Target weight for Micro Cup is 560 kg (1235 Lbs) in Cruiser division... But only new designs from Poland, Latvia and Russia manage to gather minimum weight, stability requirements and performance. three years ago, weights of 600 kg (approx 1320 lbs) or more were common on new productions.
Stability requirements for a Micro Cruiser are also at the low side, so I'm very surprised when one writes the boat "sails more like a dinghy than a yacht" and "heels readily"... he doesn't know our boats. Anyway I'm also working on improvement of the rules in order to enforce safety, the target should be an angle of vanishing stability 103 degrees for Micro Protos and Racers, 105 degrees for Cruisers...

The initial target of the class rules were also to produce boats with total weight on trailer (with anchor, chain and sails in the car) no more than 750 kg (1653 Lbs), it means in most of European countries an unbraked trailer, no additional insurance, no registration of the trailer (same plate as the car), no technical control... However this target cannot be achieved with production boats, I didn't find any combination of boat really at limit weight and trailer under 210 (Racer) or 190 kg (Cruiser).

For those who are also interested by competition, there is a "Micro Championship" in Manningtree, Essex, on October 9th-10th, apply to Stour Sailing Club micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk) (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk (micro18boat-stoursc@yahoo.co.uk))
For Dutch owners, "Na Braassem" on September 18th-19th ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org) (ned@microclass.org (ned@microclass.org))
Only well performing crew are recommended to join the best of the World on Plate Taille lake, Belgium, on October 16th-17th meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be) (meh10@microclass.be (meh10@microclass.be))

Phil
Quote: ----- Original Message -----
From: Terry (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org))
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org))
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 12:12 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

At a displacement of around 650k (when weighed many are a good bit more) swifts are light but not that light for a micro cupper.

whiteede wrote: Veel groeten Cris
Hebben jullie kijken (oh dear, must go into English) at the (British) Swift website - http://www.swift18.org/

It has useful info with a copy of the original sales doc. Basically the Swift 18 is a design originally constructed for the French microcup race contest max length 18 feet – 5.5m. it is a very light boat and sails more like a dinghy than a yacht: she will heel readily. Also the weight/size means it is trailerable. The semi planning hull means that it goes very well with the chute (spinnaker) up and gives exhilarating sailing. Having said that she is not a really fast boat. The sandwich hull construction makes her unsinkable.
Tot ziens
Philip
‘Nuestro’
From: cris75 [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 05 September 2010 12:01
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org))
Subject: [Swift 18] want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Helo everyone,

Looking on the internet for a sailing boat I came upon a Swift 18. Now I'm looking for more info about this boat. In The Netherlands, where I live, the Swift 18 is not a very popular model, don't know why. So finding info is pretty difficult. So what I would like know:
- Maybe someone can tel me what the new price for this boat is (manufactured in 1990) or, even better, maybe some has some info about the manufacturer (website/email).
- Also I'm interested in your opinion about this boat regarding the price, the year and the quality (link is at the bottom).

http://www.botentekoop.nl/zeiljachten/7 ... -1990.html

Hopefully I can spread the Swift word around in the Netherlands after this.

Best regards

Cris

Ola

Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

Terry · Post by **Terry** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:31 pm

Cheers Phil. I think I understood all that.
Terry

Phil De Troy · Post by **Phil De Troy** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:12 pm

The formulas used are taken from an old study, from a time when one couldn't imagine how light the boats could be with modern materials and building techniques, and how high the ballast could be installed.

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Terry (forum-general@swift18.org)
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 2:31 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: want to buy a swift 18 - need your opinion

Cheers Phil. I think I understood all that.
Terry

Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)