How far can one go .... over?

General chat of non-technical subjects related to sailing
Kevinbwilko
Making way
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:51 pm
Location: Nr Chorley, Lancs

How far can one go .... over?

Post by Kevinbwilko » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:28 pm

Well after all your help and suggestions my Swift went out on Saturday, first time with just a show of white tops. A run the length of Windermere was great but coming back was a slight challenge when the extension broke. Being 6' 5" with long arms did help. So after years of dinghy sailing and then flying hulls on a cat just how far should I let the Swift go over and how far will it go? (Safely of course!!) and what happens, I tended to bear up into wind which is what the boat seemed to want to do.
I will look at all the reefing points and rope them up next time I am on the boat but never reefed when a dinghy sailor!
Also is it OK to furl some genoa and sail with it partly furled as this is the only sail I got with the boat (have read about cruising jibs but doing this on a shoestring!!!!)
Can't wait to go back out to play but my sons want to play first ... so much for kids growing up and leaving home to give you more time to do what you want!!!!

Terry
Cruising
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 8:56 am
Location: Gwynedd, North Wales

Post by Terry » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:59 pm

As you correctly assumed, Swifts will start to round up once the water hits the gunnels and if you manage to push it far enough the rudder will lose grip anyway. Other than being blown flat in thunder storms and the like, I don’t know anyone who’s managed to capsize one (I bet someone will write in now to say its a common occurrence.) I do have a small jib but I’ve never used it. Other than a spinnaker , I think most owners only have a furling genoa and I frequently sail with a couple of turns on (more than that and the sail becomes increasingly inefficient.)
As to reefing the main, you’re right to think about sorting rigging in advance.
Terry

Phil De Troy
Making way
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:00 pm
Location: Seneffe (Belgium)
Contact:

How far can one go .... over?

Post by Phil De Troy » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:15 pm

All boats are becoming hard on the helm when they are over-heeled. The difference is only that when the rudder is compensated, you feel it lighter, but it doesn't meen the rudder is submitted to huge forces.
It is common that you loose control in that case if one tries to control it only with the helm. More than 5 degrees helm means you are loosing speed, hence also lift on the helm, and if you try to give more helm (10 degrees or more), the rudder profile stalls, the boat is then no longer ballanced and goes to upwind.
Only a fast action on the mainsail can help you gaining control in a gust.

Some compasses show the angle of heel (Plastimo Contest), or you can equip your boat with an inclinometer. Usually, the boat is perfectly ballanced at 15 degrees, ballanced and powerful at 20, slowing down and hard on the helm above 20.

So just reef in due time, and sail with the mainsail sheet in the hand, ready to ease.


Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry (forum-general@swift18.org)
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 6:59 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: How far can one go .... over?


As you correctly assumed, Swifts will start to round up once the water hits the gunnels and if you manage to push it far enough the rudder will lose grip anyway. Other than being blown flat in thunder storms and the like, I don’t know anyone who’s managed to capsize one (I bet someone will write in now to say its a common occurrence.) I do have a small jib but I’ve never used it. Other than a spinnaker , I think most owners only have a furling genoa and I frequently sail with a couple of turns on (more than that and the sail becomes increasingly inefficient.)
As to reefing the main, you’re right to think about sorting rigging in advance.
Terry



Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)
Phil De Troy www.MicroClass.org

John Hainsworth
Cruising
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:07 am
Location: Poole Dorset

How far can one go .... over?

Post by John Hainsworth » Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:37 pm

I hope to have similar problems just after Easter sailing in Poole
Baybut intend to practice with a small genoa from my last boat which was
a Skipper 17 and taught me a lot.

The Swift should be self righting so as a dinghy sailor you should cope.
If in doubt round up into wind and put in a reef or two.

You will sail with a furled genoa but not much cop into wind.

Hope you have a good life jacket.

Cheers John

Kevinbwilko wrote:
Well after all your help and suggestions my Swift went out on
Saturday, first time with just a show of white tops. A run the length
of Windermere was great but coming back was a slight challenge when
the extension broke. Being 6' 5" with long arms did help. So after
years of dinghy sailing and then flying hulls on a cat just how far
should I let the Swift go over and how far will it go? (Safely of
course!!) and what happens, I tended to bear up into wind which is
what the boat seemed to want to do.
I will look at all the reefing points and rope them up next time I am
on the boat but never reefed when a dinghy sailor!
Also is it OK to furl some genoa and sail with it partly furled as
this is the only sail I got with the boat (have read about cruising
jibs but doing this on a shoestring!!!!)
Can't wait to go back out to play but my sons want to play first ...
so much for kids growing up and leaving home to give you more time to
do what you want!!!!




-------------------- m2f --------------------

Sent using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com).

Read this topic online here:
http://www.swift18.org/Swift18/phpBB2/v ... =2850#2850

-------------------- m2f --------------------
Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

Phil De Troy
Making way
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:00 pm
Location: Seneffe (Belgium)
Contact:

How far can one go .... over?

Post by Phil De Troy » Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:15 pm

John,

Almost no boat, and certainly no sailboat of less than 20 ft is self-righting.
You mean probably self-righting at 90 degrees heel. They should indeed, it is commonly accepted that all boats of this category should have an angle of vanishing stability of 103 degrees.
As a Swift in this uncomfortable position should be able to lift 15 kg/35 lbs at mast head, this has the same effect as a crew of 3 trying to remain on board at deck level. As soon as one of them does something wrong, like jump in the mainsail, the boat capsizes.
In addition, don't forget that the wind brings the boat flat, but not further, the stability equations show that the stability can be greatly reduced when the water is not flat, on the foul side of a wave.
On a lake, you should have little problems if you are handling the boat properly. At sea, this can be very different. Anyway as soon as the boat can be heeled over 20 degrees, better wear the lifejackets.

Other problem, once the boat is laid flat, the crew on board helps capsizing. If one can climb over the hull and walk on the centreboard, he will help recovering. All those unable to do it should help by jumping in the water. I know it, I did it... Better have one swimming to the mast end to avoid total capsize.

Above force 4, you should also sail with doors and hatches closed...

My boat is not a Swift, but same size and less stability (being improved this winter), see http://jamaiscciii.detroy.org/albums/09-2.html
Such an uncomfortable position can be achieved with a boat of similar characteristics at the Swift, just have a good wind (25-35 knots, under spinnaker, a Russian female crew) see on a French Web site http://www.go-neptune.org/forums/postin ... 28&p=15289

Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hainsworth (forum-general@swift18.org)
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 5:40 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: How far can one go .... over?


I hope to have similar problems just after Easter sailing in Poole
Baybut intend to practice with a small genoa from my last boat which was
a Skipper 17 and taught me a lot.

The Swift should be self righting so as a dinghy sailor you should cope.
If in doubt round up into wind and put in a reef or two.

You will sail with a furled genoa but not much cop into wind.

Hope you have a good life jacket.

Cheers John

Kevinbwilko wrote:
: Well after all your help and suggestions my Swift went out on
Saturday, first time with just a show of white tops. A run the length
of Windermere was great but coming back was a slight challenge when
the extension broke. Being 6' 5" with long arms did help. So after
years of dinghy sailing and then flying hulls on a cat just how far
should I let the Swift go over and how far will it go? (Safely of
course!!) and what happens, I tended to bear up into wind which is
what the boat seemed to want to do.
I will look at all the reefing points and rope them up next time I am
on the boat but never reefed when a dinghy sailor!
Also is it OK to furl some genoa and sail with it partly furled as
this is the only sail I got with the boat (have read about cruising
jibs but doing this on a shoestring!!!!)
Can't wait to go back out to play but my sons want to play first ...
so much for kids growing up and leaving home to give you more time to
do what you want!!!!








Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)
Phil De Troy www.MicroClass.org

John Hainsworth
Cruising
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:07 am
Location: Poole Dorset

How far can one go .... over?

Post by John Hainsworth » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:04 pm

Thanks Phil,

You could have saved me some embarrassing moments. The micro cup spec
says a 25lb weight at the masthead and also specifies sufficient
bouyancy to float when waterlogged to within two inches of the toe rail.

Must admit that stepping up from the Skipper to the Swift is a bit of a
challenge. My first sail will be with a double reef and a small genoa.

John

Phil De Troy wrote:
John,

Almost no boat, and certainly no sailboat of less than 20 ft is
self-righting.
You mean probably self-righting at 90 degrees heel. They should
indeed, it is commonly accepted that all boats of this category should
have an angle of vanishing stability of 103 degrees.
As a Swift in this uncomfortable position should be able to lift 15
kg/35 lbs at mast head, this has the same effect as a crew of 3 trying
to remain on board at deck level. As soon as one of them does
something wrong, like jump in the mainsail, the boat capsizes.
In addition, don't forget that the wind brings the boat flat, but not
further, the stability equations show that the stability can be
greatly reduced when the water is not flat, on the foul side of a wave.
On a lake, you should have little problems if you are handling the
boat properly. At sea, this can be very different. Anyway as soon as
the boat can be heeled over 20 degrees, better wear the lifejackets.

Other problem, once the boat is laid flat, the crew on board helps
capsizing. If one can climb over the hull and walk on the centreboard,
he will help recovering. All those unable to do it should help by
jumping in the water. I know it, I did it... Better have one swimming
to the mast end to avoid total capsize.

Above force 4, you should also sail with doors and hatches closed...

My boat is not a Swift, but same size and less stability (being
improved this winter), see http://jamaiscciii.detroy.org/albums/09-2.html
Such an uncomfortable position can be achieved with a boat of similar
characteristics at the Swift, just have a good wind (25-35 knots,
under spinnaker, a Russian female crew) see on a French Web site
http://www.go-neptune.org/forums/postin ... 28&p=15289
<http://www.go-neptune.org/forums/postin ... 28&p=15289>

Phil
*:*
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hainsworth (forum-general@swift18.org
<mailto:forum-general@swift18.org>)
To: forum-general@swift18.org <mailto:forum-general@swift18.org>
(forum-general@swift18.org <mailto:forum-general@swift18.org>)
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 5:40 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: How far can one go .... over?


I hope to have similar problems just after Easter sailing in Poole
Baybut intend to practice with a small genoa from my last boat which was
a Skipper 17 and taught me a lot.

The Swift should be self righting so as a dinghy sailor you should cope.
If in doubt round up into wind and put in a reef or two.

You will sail with a furled genoa but not much cop into wind.

Hope you have a good life jacket.

Cheers John

Kevinbwilko wrote:
: Well after all your help and suggestions my Swift went out on
Saturday, first time with just a show of white tops. A run the length
of Windermere was great but coming back was a slight challenge when
the extension broke. Being 6' 5" with long arms did help. So after
years of dinghy sailing and then flying hulls on a cat just how far
should I let the Swift go over and how far will it go? (Safely of
course!!) and what happens, I tended to bear up into wind which is
what the boat seemed to want to do.
I will look at all the reefing points and rope them up next time I am
on the boat but never reefed when a dinghy sailor!
Also is it OK to furl some genoa and sail with it partly furled as
this is the only sail I got with the boat (have read about cruising
jibs but doing this on a shoestring!!!!)
Can't wait to go back out to play but my sons want to play first ...
so much for kids growing up and leaving home to give you more time to
do what you want!!!!












------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phil De Troy www.MicroClass.org <http://www.MicroClass.org>




-------------------- m2f --------------------

Sent using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com).

Read this topic online here:
http://www.swift18.org/Swift18/phpBB2/v ... =2854#2854

-------------------- m2f --------------------
Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

Phil De Troy
Making way
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:00 pm
Location: Seneffe (Belgium)
Contact:

How far can one go .... over?

Post by Phil De Troy » Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:44 pm

John,

As you could see in my gallery, my boat was correctly foamed, but my crew on board found it was uncomfortable as he had wet feet, so I added another 100 litres at the transom.

The Micro Class rules are old, I'm in charge of improvements, but most of the nations are reluctant to accept more complex rules. The problem is that it is difficult for a measurer to assess the buoyancy. And the stability issue is a deep concern for us, the limits are valid for boats at the low weight limit, but not when they are over standard weight. A new method is in development, based on the principles of RORC Stability Index and calculation of the Angle of Vanishing Stability. The only decision from most of the nations is that when a boats qualifies with the proposed methods, she should be exempted from the stability tests of the Class Rules. Bad choice as the problems are coming mainly from old designs, modern ones are usually in the normal weight limits (example, Russian Ricochet 550C was 780 kg (1720 Lbs), version 550-2C odf 2005 was 660 kg (1455 Lbs), 550-2M of 2009 was found 560-580 (1235-1278) in the World Championships.
The Russian helmswoman (RUS-105 on the French forum) could have hated me as I advised the manufacturer to reduce ballast as the boat was too heavy and far above stability specifications. But this was only to fin up to where competitors were allowed to remove inner ballast (this amount had to be sealed on all produced boats).
Globally, we are following the same targets as the Recreational Craft Directive 94/25CE and according ISO norms. Swifts and Micros are supposed to be certified as Category C, able to sail in sheltered waters and small estuaries, in winds up to, and including, 6 Beaufort and waves up to 2 metres (6.5 ft).
New Swifts produced by Boats4Fun should be compliant on buoyancy and stability.

Then further question was "where to find the place for buoyancy".
My configuration was the "three volumes".
  • Take the boat weight and substract the hull own volume (sorry I'm working in litres and kilograms) example, my boat 500 kg, hull area 16 sq.m, hull thickness 6 mm, means 96 litres, required buoyancy 404 litres.
  • divide by 2, 202 litres
  • make 3 such volumes (total 606). One of them under the forward double berth, two under deck as far as possible from the centreplane, NOT too far aft
  • Part of the required volumes can be located in unused places, under aft berths, ...
My boat has now a total buoyancy 800 litres and this without loosing interesting locker volumes.

Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hainsworth (forum-general@swift18.org)
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 7:05 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: How far can one go .... over?


Thanks Phil,

You could have saved me some embarrassing moments. The micro cup spec
says a 25lb weight at the masthead and also specifies sufficient
bouyancy to float when waterlogged to within two inches of the toe rail.

Must admit that stepping up from the Skipper to the Swift is a bit of a
challenge. My first sail will be with a double reef and a small genoa.

John

Phil De Troy wrote:
: John,

Almost no boat, and certainly no sailboat of less than 20 ft is
self-righting.
You mean probably self-righting at 90 degrees heel. They should
indeed, it is commonly accepted that all boats of this category should
have an angle of vanishing stability of 103 degrees.
As a Swift in this uncomfortable position should be able to lift 15
kg/35 lbs at mast head, this has the same effect as a crew of 3 trying
to remain on board at deck level. As soon as one of them does
something wrong, like jump in the mainsail, the boat capsizes.
In addition, don't forget that the wind brings the boat flat, but not
further, the stability equations show that the stability can be
greatly reduced when the water is not flat, on the foul side of a wave.
On a lake, you should have little problems if you are handling the
boat properly. At sea, this can be very different. Anyway as soon as
the boat can be heeled over 20 degrees, better wear the lifejackets.

Other problem, once the boat is laid flat, the crew on board helps
capsizing. If one can climb over the hull and walk on the centreboard,
he will help recovering. All those unable to do it should help by
jumping in the water. I know it, I did it... Better have one swimming
to the mast end to avoid total capsize.

Above force 4, you should also sail with doors and hatches closed...

My boat is not a Swift, but same size and less stability (being
improved this winter), see http://jamaiscciii.detroy.org/albums/09-2.html
Such an uncomfortable position can be achieved with a boat of similar
characteristics at the Swift, just have a good wind (25-35 knots,
under spinnaker, a Russian female crew) see on a French Web site
http://www.go-neptune.org/forums/postin ... 28&p=15289


Phil
*:*
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hainsworth (forum-general@swift18.org
)
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
(forum-general@swift18.org )
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 5:40 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: How far can one go .... over?


I hope to have similar problems just after Easter sailing in Poole
Baybut intend to practice with a small genoa from my last boat which was
a Skipper 17 and taught me a lot.

The Swift should be self righting so as a dinghy sailor you should cope.
If in doubt round up into wind and put in a reef or two.

You will sail with a furled genoa but not much cop into wind.

Hope you have a good life jacket.

Cheers John

Kevinbwilko wrote:
: Well after all your help and suggestions my Swift went out on
Saturday, first time with just a show of white tops. A run the length
of Windermere was great but coming back was a slight challenge when
the extension broke. Being 6' 5" with long arms did help. So after
years of dinghy sailing and then flying hulls on a cat just how far
should I let the Swift go over and how far will it go? (Safely of
course!!) and what happens, I tended to bear up into wind which is
what the boat seemed to want to do.
I will look at all the reefing points and rope them up next time I am
on the boat but never reefed when a dinghy sailor!
Also is it OK to furl some genoa and sail with it partly furled as
this is the only sail I got with the boat (have read about cruising
jibs but doing this on a shoestring!!!!)
Can't wait to go back out to play but my sons want to play first ...
so much for kids growing up and leaving home to give you more time to
do what you want!!!!












------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phil De Troy www.MicroClass.org








Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)
Phil De Troy www.MicroClass.org

Terry
Cruising
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 8:56 am
Location: Gwynedd, North Wales

Re: How far can one go .... over?

Post by Terry » Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:28 pm

I think a Hawk 20 is!
The other thing about a swift is, that if one did completely invert, the keel would drop back into the keelbox with, probably, damaging force.
Terry
Phil De Troy wrote:John,

Almost no boat, and certainly no sailboat of less than 20 ft is self-righting.
You mean probably self-righting at 90 degrees heel. They should indeed, it is commonly accepted that all boats of this category should have an angle of vanishing stability of 103 degrees.
As a Swift in this uncomfortable position should be able to lift 15 kg/35 lbs at mast head, this has the same effect as a crew of 3 trying to remain on board at deck level. As soon as one of them does something wrong, like jump in the mainsail, the boat capsizes.
In addition, don't forget that the wind brings the boat flat, but not further, the stability equations show that the stability can be greatly reduced when the water is not flat, on the foul side of a wave.
On a lake, you should have little problems if you are handling the boat properly. At sea, this can be very different. Anyway as soon as the boat can be heeled over 20 degrees, better wear the lifejackets.

Other problem, once the boat is laid flat, the crew on board helps capsizing. If one can climb over the hull and walk on the centreboard, he will help recovering. All those unable to do it should help by jumping in the water. I know it, I did it... Better have one swimming to the mast end to avoid total capsize.

Above force 4, you should also sail with doors and hatches closed...

My boat is not a Swift, but same size and less stability (being improved this winter), see http://jamaiscciii.detroy.org/albums/09-2.html
Such an uncomfortable position can be achieved with a boat of similar characteristics at the Swift, just have a good wind (25-35 knots, under spinnaker, a Russian female crew) see on a French Web site http://www.go-neptune.org/forums/postin ... 28&p=15289

Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: John Hainsworth (forum-general@swift18.org)
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 5:40 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: How far can one go .... over?


I hope to have similar problems just after Easter sailing in Poole
Baybut intend to practice with a small genoa from my last boat which was
a Skipper 17 and taught me a lot.

The Swift should be self righting so as a dinghy sailor you should cope.
If in doubt round up into wind and put in a reef or two.

You will sail with a furled genoa but not much cop into wind.

Hope you have a good life jacket.

Cheers John

Kevinbwilko wrote:
: Well after all your help and suggestions my Swift went out on
Saturday, first time with just a show of white tops. A run the length
of Windermere was great but coming back was a slight challenge when
the extension broke. Being 6' 5" with long arms did help. So after
years of dinghy sailing and then flying hulls on a cat just how far
should I let the Swift go over and how far will it go? (Safely of
course!!) and what happens, I tended to bear up into wind which is
what the boat seemed to want to do.
I will look at all the reefing points and rope them up next time I am
on the boat but never reefed when a dinghy sailor!
Also is it OK to furl some genoa and sail with it partly furled as
this is the only sail I got with the boat (have read about cruising
jibs but doing this on a shoestring!!!!)
Can't wait to go back out to play but my sons want to play first ...
so much for kids growing up and leaving home to give you more time to
do what you want!!!!








Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

Phil De Troy
Making way
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:00 pm
Location: Seneffe (Belgium)
Contact:

How far can one go .... over?

Post by Phil De Troy » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:42 am

This is a known problem. A German manufacturer, Sailart www.sailart.de has a keel retracting under the hull (like the First 18) and the boats are over the stability limits. Some boats inverted with a lot of noise and some damage when the keel hit the hull.
So on request of some customers, they developped a heavier keel (and thicker at the bottom), some boats inverted anyway, but with more noise and much more damage.
I suggested the manufacturer to develop a blocking system, could be a thick plastic pin or a notch in the heel head witth retractable blocking system, the purpose was to hold the keel in navigation position in a capsize, nut to allow to retract when hitting something.
No news about the evolution, but a new version is under development and could be submitted for certification soon.

Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: Terry (forum-general@swift18.org)
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:28 AM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: How far can one go .... over?


The other thing about a swift is, that if one did completely invert, the keel would drop back into the keelbox with, probably, damaging force.
Terry
Phil De Troy wrote: John,

Almost no boat, and certainly no sailboat of less than 20 ft is self-righting.
You mean probably self-righting at 90 degrees heel. They should indeed, it is commonly accepted that all boats of this category should have an angle of vanishing stability of 103 degrees.
As a Swift in this uncomfortable position should be able to lift 15 kg/35 lbs at mast head, this has the same effect as a crew of 3 trying to remain on board at deck level. As soon as one of them does something wrong, like jump in the mainsail, the boat capsizes.
In addition, don't forget that the wind brings the boat flat, but not further, the stability equations show that the stability can be greatly reduced when the water is not flat, on the foul side of a wave.
On a lake, you should have little problems if you are handling the boat properly. At sea, this can be very different. Anyway as soon as the boat can be heeled over 20 degrees, better wear the lifejackets.

Other problem, once the boat is laid flat, the crew on board helps capsizing. If one can climb over the hull and walk on the centreboard, he will help recovering. All those unable to do it should help by jumping in the water. I know it, I did it... Better have one swimming to the mast end to avoid total capsize.

Above force 4, you should also sail with doors and hatches closed...

My boat is not a Swift, but same size and less stability (being improved this winter), see http://jamaiscciii.detroy.org/albums/09-2.html
Such an uncomfortable position can be achieved with a boat of similar characteristics at the Swift, just have a good wind (25-35 knots, under spinnaker, a Russian female crew) see on a French Web site http://www.go-neptune.org/forums/postin ... 28&p=15289

Phil
Quote: ----- Original Message -----
From: John Hainsworth (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org))
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org))
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 5:40 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: How far can one go .... over?


I hope to have similar problems just after Easter sailing in Poole
Baybut intend to practice with a small genoa from my last boat which was
a Skipper 17 and taught me a lot.

The Swift should be self righting so as a dinghy sailor you should cope.
If in doubt round up into wind and put in a reef or two.

You will sail with a furled genoa but not much cop into wind.

Hope you have a good life jacket.

Cheers John

Kevinbwilko wrote:
: Well after all your help and suggestions my Swift went out on
Saturday, first time with just a show of white tops. A run the length
of Windermere was great but coming back was a slight challenge when
the extension broke. Being 6' 5" with long arms did help. So after
years of dinghy sailing and then flying hulls on a cat just how far
should I let the Swift go over and how far will it go? (Safely of
course!!) and what happens, I tended to bear up into wind which is
what the boat seemed to want to do.
I will look at all the reefing points and rope them up next time I am
on the boat but never reefed when a dinghy sailor!
Also is it OK to furl some genoa and sail with it partly furled as
this is the only sail I got with the boat (have read about cruising
jibs but doing this on a shoestring!!!!)
Can't wait to go back out to play but my sons want to play first ...
so much for kids growing up and leaving home to give you more time to
do what you want!!!!




Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)
Phil De Troy www.MicroClass.org

AFG
Making way
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:37 pm
Location: Rutland

Sailing Characteristics

Post by AFG » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:49 pm

Hi Kevin,

I too am a ex dinghy sailor and have had my Swift for a season so far. I wrote a document about buying a Swift based on a lot of info I gleaned from various people at Rutland with lots of experience, including the local Swiftcraft sales agent and former Tech Sec of the fleet. (It's on the website somewhere.) Without fail they all say that in anything above a force 2/3, the boat handles better and is faster with a smaller headsail than the standard genny. This stops the boat screwing up in the gusts and settles her down at a more or less comfortable angle right up a full 6+ in my experience - as long as you have a single reef in the main.

Personally, I use a mid size headsail - see forum discussion elsewhere by me (AFG) on sails - instead of a furled genny because it is more efficient and we race a bit. I guess for cruising the furled genny is fine as long as you don't roll it up too far.

Another thing I've found is that with two mainsail reefs in you need a reasonable headsail area to get to windward - much as you might expect really. I found this out the hard way: with a double reef and my small headsail reefed trying to get off a lea shore and failing, creating a near disaster. In this situation, once the jib was out fully, the boat got away fine if a little out of balance. So these days I always use only the one mainsail reef and furl the jib if I'm too pressed, but never more than one-third rolled away. That way you can make headway to windward even in a 6+. At least in my experience.

Best of luck!

Tony G

Terry
Cruising
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 8:56 am
Location: Gwynedd, North Wales

Post by Terry » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:18 pm

Does anyone know about foam luffs and can you retro fit them to an existing sail?

John Hainsworth
Cruising
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:07 am
Location: Poole Dorset

How far can one go .... over?

Post by John Hainsworth » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:09 am

Hi Tony,

Useful info, thanks.

The more I read the more I wonder about the sail plan.

Does anybody know what sail plan the new cruising version will have?

I'm not on the water yet but intend to start with one reef and an old
Skipper genoa just to get the feel of things.

Has anybody come up with an alternative strong point for the main sheet?

I suspect tacking could be tricky with it on the cockpit floor.

John

AFG wrote:
Hi Kevin,

I too am a ex dinghy sailor and have had my Swift for a season so far.
I wrote a document about buying a Swift based on a lot of info I
gleaned from various people at Rutland with lots of experience,
including the local Swiftcraft sales agent and former Tech Sec of the
fleet. (It's on the website somewhere.) Without fail they all say that
in anything above a force 2/3, the boat handles better and is faster
with a smaller headsail than the standard genny. This stops the boat
screwing up in the gusts and settles her down at a more or less
comfortable angle right up a full 6+ in my experience - as long as you
have a single reef in the main.

Personally, I use a mid size headsail - see forum discussion elsewhere
by me (AFG) on sails - instead of a furled genny because it is more
efficient and we race a bit. I guess for cruising the furled genny is
fine as long as you don't roll it up too far.

Another thing I've found is that with two mainsail reefs in you need a
reasonable headsail area to get to windward - much as you might expect
really. I found this out the hard way: with a double reef and my small
headsail reefed trying to get off a lea shore and failing, creating a
near disaster. In this situation, once the jib was out fully, the boat
got away fine if a little out of balance. So these days I always use
only the one mainsail reef and furl the jib if I'm too pressed, but
never more than one-third rolled away. That way you can make headway
to windward even in a 6+. At least in my experience.

Best of luck!

Tony G




-------------------- m2f --------------------

Sent using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com).

Read this topic online here:
http://www.swift18.org/Swift18/phpBB2/v ... =2870#2870

-------------------- m2f --------------------
Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

whiteede
Making way
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:51 am
Location: Christow Devon
Boat Name: nuestro

Re: how far can one go..over?

Post by whiteede » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:39 am

From my own experiences I agree with Tony - AFG. The Genny is too powerful to aid quick tacking, or sometimes even achieving tacking, and you certainly round up into the wind from a broad reach in a strong wind (force 6 gust for sure). I am going to have a new jib made but haven't yet checked out our triffic site info on what size is good. I have been musing on two things lately i) raking the mast a little to improve upwind and ii) moving the slightly annoying cockpit sheet attachment. I have wondered if a cable horse across the stern would answer- as you get in an Enterprise dinghy. You would need clips to limit traverse of the block. I welcome comments too.
Philip of Nuestro

Phil De Troy
Making way
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:00 pm
Location: Seneffe (Belgium)
Contact:

How far can one go .... over?

Post by Phil De Troy » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:18 pm

Genny, force 6... don't be surprised if something wrong happens.
Such a rig is weak when you need to have control of the forestay tension, and a genua should be furled soon.
Only the Challenger Micro has a similar ratio genua/main
A 7/8 rig can usually sail properly with mainsail only. The furling working jib 5.6 sq.ft / 5.20 sq.m as described in the technical section of the Web site is certainly not the best option.
Based on a mainsail 94 sq.ft / 8.73 sq.m, the maximum genua should be 105 sq.ft / 9.27 sq.m.
The drawings are showing a non-furling "high aspect", very good sail and no problem for tacking.

This sail could be adapted to furling according to following rules :
  • luff length same as genua
  • longest perpendicular 70% of the genua (area 70 to 75 sq.ft)
  • higher clew, so there is no need to change the position of the traveller (or attachment point of the sheet block). It helps also having a good view in the dead angle.
The genua becomes an additional sail, lighter, for winds up to force 3, no more, with cable in the luff (now very flexible with Dyneema), no hanks or attachment to the forestay. You can use the sail with a tack line (tension with blocks), hoist with a strong spinnaker halyard or a second headsail halyard (useful also for a heavy weather sail).
The furling high aspect jib shouldn't be used with more than 3 turns, more only in an emergency.

You should reef only after the first turns.

If you need to tuck the second reef, then consider changing the furling jib to a heavy weather jib, no more than 50 sq.ft, also with high clew. The sail can be hoisted from the cockpit, like the genua.

For very bad conditions, you could also une a real storm jib, the standard area is 30 sq.ft, strong cloth, can be red or orange colour...

The best I can wish you is to have the stormy on board, but re-sell the boat many years later with this sail unused.

Phil

Phil De Troy
http://www.swift18.org/docs/sail-area.pdf
----- Original Message -----
From: whiteede (forum-general@swift18.org)
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org)
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 1:39 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: How far can one go .... over?


From my own experiences I agree with Tony - AFG. The Genny is too powerful to aid quick tacking, or sometimes even achieving tacking, and you certainly round up into the wind from a broad reach in a strong wind (force 6 gust for sure). I am going to have a new jib made but haven't yet checked out our triffic site info on what size is good. I have been musing on two things lately i) raking the mast a little to improve upwind and ii) moving the slightly annoying cockpit sheet attachment. I have wondered if a cable horse across the stern would answer- as you get in an Enterprise dinghy. You would need clips to limit traverse of the block. I welcome comments too.
Philip of Nuestro



Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)
Phil De Troy www.MicroClass.org

whiteede
Making way
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:51 am
Location: Christow Devon
Boat Name: nuestro

How far can one go .... over?

Post by whiteede » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:52 pm

Thanks very much indeed for that info Phil. Whilst I understand the ref to a high clew/traveller position I am intrigued by the sail design importance given to a low clew, i.e. fairly level foot for efficiency of wind utilisation. Is this too extreme in relation to use on a Swift?
Philip ‘nuestro’

From: Phil De Troy [mailto:forum-general@swift18.org]
Sent: 06 April 2010 14:20
To: forum-general@swift18.org
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: How far can one go .... over?



Genny, force 6... don't be surprised if something wrong happens.
Such a rig is weak when you need to have control of the forestay tension, and a genua should be furled soon.
Only the Challenger Micro has a similar ratio genua/main
A 7/8 rig can usually sail properly with mainsail only. The furling working jib 5.6 sq.ft / 5.20 sq.m as described in the technical section of the Web site is certainly not the best option.
Based on a mainsail 94 sq.ft / 8.73 sq.m, the maximum genua should be 105 sq.ft / 9.27 sq.m.
The drawings are showing a non-furling "high aspect", very good sail and no problem for tacking.

This sail could be adapted to furling according to following rules :
  • luff length same as genua
  • longest perpendicular 70% of the genua (area 70 to 75 sq.ft)
  • higher clew, so there is no need to change the position of the traveller (or attachment point of the sheet block). It helps also having a good view in the dead angle.

The genua becomes an additional sail, lighter, for winds up to force 3, no more, with cable in the luff (now very flexible with Dyneema), no hanks or attachment to the forestay. You can use the sail with a tack line (tension with blocks), hoist with a strong spinnaker halyard or a second headsail halyard (useful also for a heavy weather sail).
The furling high aspect jib shouldn't be used with more than 3 turns, more only in an emergency.

You should reef only after the first turns.

If you need to tuck the second reef, then consider changing the furling jib to a heavy weather jib, no more than 50 sq.ft, also with high clew. The sail can be hoisted from the cockpit, like the genua.

For very bad conditions, you could also une a real storm jib, the standard area is 30 sq.ft, strong cloth, can be red or orange colour...

The best I can wish you is to have the stormy on board, but re-sell the boat many years later with this sail unused.

Phil

Phil De Troy
http://www.swift18.org/docs/sail-area.pdf
:
----- Original Message -----
From: whiteede (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org))
To: forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org) (forum-general@swift18.org (forum-general@swift18.org))
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 1:39 PM
Subject: [Swift 18] Re: How far can one go .... over?


From my own experiences I agree with Tony - AFG. The Genny is too powerful to aid quick tacking, or sometimes even achieving tacking, and you certainly round up into the wind from a broad reach in a strong wind (force 6 gust for sure). I am going to have a new jib made but haven't yet checked out our triffic site info on what size is good. I have been musing on two things lately i) raking the mast a little to improve upwind and ii) moving the slightly annoying cockpit sheet attachment. I have wondered if a cable horse across the stern would answer- as you get in an Enterprise dinghy. You would need clips to limit traverse of the block. I welcome comments too.
Philip of Nuestro









Phil De Troy www.MicroClass.org

Post generated using Mail2Forum (http://www.mail2forum.com)

Post Reply